[Dom]

Examples?

We have had reports of up to 16 weeks of durability from Supernatural v1, which is about as far as carnauba waxes generally go. Durability reports can be very subjective and difficult to qualify... beading may diminish after weeks but the protection could last for months. People may assume the wax has gone when it hasn't, or prop up a failing wax with wax-laden shampoo or even a quick detailer... and assume it lasts all year.

Even if you were guaranteed at least the same or additional durability from SV, you could put on more Dodo wax per dollar due to the price difference, so there wouldn't be an economic argument for doing so. It would have to last twice as long or something, and that just won't happen from a carnauba wax.

[matrix_808]

How do you actually tell when your protection is gone then besides sheeting and beading on clean paint?

Well from my experience i did a side by side with Dodo and SV and found the beading to be just about the same for the first week, but after that Dodo beading went downhill while SV remained pretty tight.

[Dom]

That is the whole point... you can't tell durability just from beading or sheeting - although it can be indicative, of course.

For example, say that beading did trail off sooner... do you know that the wax has gone? Or how do you know that the layer that beads worse due to the surface becoming more pitted more quickly through UV degradation isn't thicker than the other side? The thickness of the laid down layer will have more to do with durability than how smooth the surface is. What if one wax had UV inhibitors in it to prevent this, but was thinner overall? Or what if it contained more silicone to enhance visual beading? Would it last as long or is it just a short term fix?

It is a very difficult subject to quantify or qualify. We know that something like SNv2 is a top class wax with top class durability, and that our other waxes have had good durability reports, as well. At least in line - if not better - than their competitors. But what if one 'wax' actually has more 'sealant' type ingredients in, so wasn't competing on the same terms. Or what if it had ingredients that led to a very durable coating that didn't bead or sheet well at all?

In your test, the SV wax you applied vs the Dodo one you applied (which ones out of interest?) may last or be lasting longer. We just don't know. But beading/sheeting doesn't necessarily prove it for sure.

We stand by our products as being as durable as carnauba waxes can hope to be, whilst delivering good performance in terms of looks and offering good value against costlier competitors. However, when one of our basic waxes outlasted a sealant in one independent report, we had to keep an open mind there as well. Durability is effectively a subjective measure these days, not an objective one. We know that sealants can technically last longer on a surface as a coating, but it depends on sealant, application and number of layers. We also know that natural waxes can be fairly durable but tend to offer easier application.

[Cooter]

Thanks for the info Dom!! Nothing like getting info straight from the manufacturer!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dom]

Well, I don't want to say that Matrix 808 is wrong or that our waxes do last as long as SV waxes, maybe they don't, just that it is very tricky to know for sure. I said it is effectively subjective, as there are no objective, independent tests that are being carried out. So it all relies on manufacturer's claims and consumer reports - biased at worst and subjective at best.

For example, for every report we have of 'x' wax lasting longer than Dodo, we have someone posting that Dodo lasts longer than 'x' wax in their opinion or 'y' wax or whatever. And then someone defends 'y' wax in the next post. Everyone basically means 'I suspect SV outlasts Dodo' rather than 'SV outlasts Dodo'. It then really needs proving either way as a hypothesis.

To show you how confusing it can be, the beading of a test panel I had was poor after a rain storm about 3 weeks after application... I know the wax will last far longer, but I was dismayed by the relatively flat beading. So I went out and spritzed the panel to see if it was just the rain beads, but the spritz beads were fairly flat too. Then, after a week, it rained again and the beading was much more upright - really good. I was astounded. I had almost written off that formula because of one lot of flat beading. Maybe the rain was hitting the panel in a different way (I just leave it outside, face up, to get a pounding from the sun's UV rays and the rain), but it shows how you have to be careful interpreting what you see.

Subjective opinion can be helpful, of course, so we never mind it. We improved Supernatural because although some had got as much as 16 weeks from it *subjectively*, others were reporting half that *subjectively*. We can't go around saying, well, he's a pro and he's an idiot, so we take it all in. If 100 people say the same thing, they are probably saying the right thing. But we tend to get an even share of positive/negative reports. When a product is ver-performing or under-performing against the expectations of that product, whether ours or not, we will look at it and work out why that is. Does that super long lasting wax actually contain some sealant ingredients? Are they using a tonne of silicones? Are their solvents a bit more aggressive but not as consumer-friendly as the ones we like using? If we can up our game, we will

And of course, the biggest worry of all is simply misinformation, and the internet is as good for misinformation as good information - it is only as good as the filters in your brain. Take the shot below. This is of Supernatural v2 beading. But it is just after application. If I was to claim it was 3 months later, how can you prove otherwise? I don't think it happens often but until there are independent and verifiable tests you have to just take a very general view of any reports and treat them as being interesting but subjective.

[P1et]

Originally Posted by Dodo Factory

You will be lucky to get more than 3 months out of any carnauba-based wax, due to the UV degredation of carnauba, assuming the car sees the light of day. Thin, multiple layers are best. Sealants may have increased durability due to the way their molecules link, but again it does depend on solids content and the rest of the recipe. Why do you think sealant manufacturers want you to prep and layer? Sealants are typically liquids with a lower solid content, so layering is much more important.

But Crystal Rock gets a full YEAR of protection!!!

[Dom]

Verified by who?

Assuming you get the independent and verifiable report, which I would love to see, it would be worth close scrutiny to see the conditions of the test etc. There are too many variables... is a coating being topped up after application, is the test relevant to real world conditions, have multiple layers been applied or just one, what prep-work has been done (or not?). You'd need to see the report, or just swallow the claim wholesale

[P1et]

Originally Posted by Dodo Factory

Verified by who?

Assuming you get the independent and verifiable report, which I would love to see, it would be worth close scrutiny to see the conditions of the test etc. There are too many variables... is a coating being topped up after application, is the test relevant to real world conditions, have multiple layers been applied or just one, what prep-work has been done (or not?). You'd need to see the report, or just swallow the claim wholesale

Haha, that's why I put the tip-toe emoticon underneath my statement. This claim is made when you read the description for Crystal Rock. It might be one the finest waxes out there, but I find a one-year durability claim a bit excessive.

[Dom]

LOL, yup I saw the tippy toe

If it is a verifiable or verified claim I will eat a panel pot of Dodo Juice. You can choose the flavour.

[Dom]

In fact, I am not even sure that it was formulated a year ago, so that would put it in the realms of guesswork... unless I'm wrong, of course, which I am happy to be.

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