[togwt]

Originally Posted by Dodo Factory

Maybe I misread this, but surely you mean that carnaubas advertising more than 50% content are advertising a dry volume rather than dry weight or wet volume? Dry weight/wet volume is about half the dry volume measurement, so 30% by wet volume is about 30% by dry weight which is about 60% by dry volume. You seem to have this the other way around.

Dry volume is a strange way to measure carnauba content within a product, scientifically speaking. Wet volume of melted flakes or dry weight of flakes (where air between flakes is not taken into account) is more accurate.

Of course, some carnauba percentages refer to the percentage of carnauba as a proportion of wax content only, i.e. 70% carnauba, 30% beeswax. This seems to be the case with R222 100% wax.

I did an experiment regarding this here:

Mysteries of the Carnauba Trade Part 1 - Fun With Volume - Detailing World

I've not seen a volume stated as wet or dry just a volume i.e.
Quote: Zymol - Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.
Swissvax - Divine™ containing over 60% by volume of ultra pure Brazilian white carnauba"
from their respective websites

Honest opinion or merely advertising? Commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. Marketing Hype = Blurring the distinction between science and fiction Advertised Claims= Nothing more than advertising copy of dubious functional validity.

Its very unusual to find someone who will be as upfront as you are prepared to be about their own products. Thanks for the honest information

[trhland]

Originally Posted by togwt

I've not seen a volume stated as wet or dry just a volume i.e.
Quote: Zymol - Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.
Swissvax - Divine™ containing over 60% by volume of ultra pure Brazilian white carnauba"
from their respective websites

Honest opinion or merely advertising? Commercialism brings with it concerns of honesty and true representation. Marketing Hype = Blurring the distinction between science and fiction Advertised Claims= Nothing more than advertising copy of dubious functional validity.

Its very unusual to find someone who will be as upfront as you are prepared to be about their own products. Thanks for the honest information

i just emailed swissvax. and asked them how do you measure the carnuaba in your wax? whats the overall carnuaba in one container? ill post what they say if they email me back.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by togwt

I've not seen a volume stated as wet or dry just a volume i.e.
Quote: Zymol - Royale Glaze contains 70% Brazilian No.1 White Carnauba by volume.
Swissvax - Divine™ containing over 60% by volume of ultra pure Brazilian white carnauba"
from their respective websites

Well, that's the golden get out clause as far as I can work it out. If it is measured as a dry volume it is still 'by volume' but that is like me saying that the new Dodo Juice Raptor 5000 sports car does 0-60 in 3 seconds flat. You think it is doing 0-60 mph in 3 seconds and are impressed. I actually calculated the 0-60 kph time and let assumption do the rest. In a hypothetical court situation, I'm sure the defense would be that the by volume figure is accurate. But why choose dry volume, if this turns out to be the case? Wet volume or dry weight would be the more scientific way of measuring carnauba content in a paste wax.

The saddest thing of all is that both S and Z make great products; why the need for a carnauba arms race when the reality is that it is just one component of a good car wax and there are many great sealants out there that don't need it at all? And from a marketing ethics point of view, I would expect any claim by any manufacturer that can be acted on by a purchaser to be independently verifiable or provable by the manufacturer. I hope the companies in question respond with proof or independent verification when challenged. P21S (R222) gave an intelligent response to the question that was asked, but even then, they only put 100% carnauba on the packet as it would obviously be seen as a product virtue. How many consumers would act on that product benefit vs the number of consumers who fully understood the claim being made? Technically and legally R222 seem to be acting legitimately, but it hardly helps educate the consumer and could even be seen as being a bit cynical from a marketing perspective.

[detaildoc]

Originally Posted by trhland

i just emailed swissvax. and asked them how do you measure the carnuaba in your wax? whats the overall carnuaba in one container? ill post what they say if they email me back.

Did you ever get a response?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Dodo Factory

Well, that's the golden get out clause as far as I can work it out. If it is measured as a dry volume it is still 'by volume' but that is like me saying that the new Dodo Juice Raptor 5000 sports car does 0-60 in 3 seconds flat. You think it is doing 0-60 mph in 3 seconds and are impressed. I actually calculated the 0-60 kph time and let assumption do the rest. In a hypothetical court situation, I'm sure the defense would be that the by volume figure is accurate. But why choose dry volume, if this turns out to be the case? Wet volume or dry weight would be the more scientific way of measuring carnauba content in a paste wax.

The saddest thing of all is that both S and Z make great products; why the need for a carnauba arms race when the reality is that it is just one component of a good car wax and there are many great sealants out there that don't need it at all? And from a marketing ethics point of view, I would expect any claim by any manufacturer that can be acted on by a purchaser to be independently verifiable or provable by the manufacturer. I hope the companies in question respond with proof or independent verification when challenged. P21S (R222) gave an intelligent response to the question that was asked, but even then, they only put 100% carnauba on the packet as it would obviously be seen as a product virtue. How many consumers would act on that product benefit vs the number of consumers who fully understood the claim being made? Technically and legally R222 seem to be acting legitimately, but it hardly helps educate the consumer and could even be seen as being a bit cynical from a marketing perspective.

FWIW, The PS21s version of the wax comes with a little booklet that clearly explains what they mean by the wax percentage. Now I understand that a lot of people will not read the booklet, but I find this is much more then most other wax companies (present tense excluded) are willing to concede.

[trhland]

Originally Posted by detaildoc

Did you ever get a response?

no response back.. and i called zymol to ask them the same thing and they said they would get back to me they have no idea. and they never called me back . so i gave up
i love carnuaba waxes so ill continue to use them no matter if there hyped up or not
if im happy with results thats all that matters.



tom

[Dom]

LOL, you have to wonder why they don't respond.

Either:

a) they don't want to give an official response for some reason (you'd think they'd have nothing to hide so why not give a response? Confuses the heck out of me.) So it must be:

b) lack of knowledge about their own products... pretty crud for any company not to know some basic answers to questions about its products, especially if it is used in marketing them!

c) can't be fecked to respond... poor customer care.

So not looking good anyway.

Shame, as carnauba waxes ARE good and the companies mentioned make good examples of them. But why the wall of silence? Straaaange.

[detaildoc]

Originally Posted by trhland

no response back.. and i called zymol to ask them the same thing and they said they would get back to me they have no idea. and they never called me back . so i gave up
i love carnuaba waxes so ill continue to use them no matter if there hyped up or not
if im happy with results thats all that matters.



tom

Does not surprise me. I agree though. I have pretty much become a nuba addict, so as long as I like the results, I'll keep buying the wax.

[Brian N]

Very good read. Nice to know that caranuba content isn't everything.

[SuperBee364]

Glad you guys brought this thread back to life.... good read. Great to see Dodo Factory participate in it, too.